My Assistant
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ArtSpace
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Jan 11 2010, 11:07 AM
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#21
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Group: Furres |
Because Morwina isn't a part of DEP's payroll, she doesn't have to be respectful when talking about something she doesn't like. This seems like some pretty fallacious reasoning.
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Turquoise
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Jan 11 2010, 11:10 AM
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#22
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Group: Furres |
To be honest, there is only a small potion of the DEP staff that I think repeatedly fails to handle PR and Customer Service with a professional attitude. Unfortunately for DEP, this same portion also seems to be in total control of a majority of the PR issues.
Those of us who have played this game for a long time, and kept track of its development, and even some of those who are new, have always hoped for a greater future in what this game could deliver. Some of us are more opinionated than others. Some of us have put a lot of money into Furcadia, with the direct hope of helping it to continue to grow. As multiple members of DEP Staff would be able to verify from logs, I was one of those people. I have more than once, when I bothered to sign on and participate with anything on Furcadia, contacted a member of DEP for one reason or another, and expressed how I had been happy to help support the game. I at some point even called Furcadia my 'home' on the internet. Sadly, over time, this opinion began to change. It started with the lack of progression in game development, and was finalized at the lack of reception to question and complaints regarding those concerns. Not just in dealings with myself, but in having witnessed the overall response to such issues. I would not put it past a community member to lose their temper, lose their cool, and be less than eloquent in their statements. However, responses from staff should be different. Especially from a staff that constantly reminds us "DEP is a REAL company" and "DEP is professional". Its laughable that the people who make such claims, then turn out to be same same people who will turn around and quite literally exclaim "You're being mean!! >:(" .. I don't expect DEP Staff members to be emotionless robots. What I do expect, is to know how to act professionally. And if it has become obvious that someone cannot handle that responsibility, they should be either removed from it and placed elsewhere, or more people should be given the chance to help. But, honestly, at this point I can say that I know there is no point in any of us sharing our thoughts on this matter here. DEP owns Furcadia. DEP will run Furcadia however DEP sees fit - even at the cost of their player base. Be it a large loss, or a small loss, for such a small company any loss will have its impact. I have realized that I do not agree with the direction this game is going. I have realized that asking for answers gets more aggravated responses than answers. And for this, I chose to stop giving it my support. I'll be stepping out now, having said my two-cents on this issue. And in case you are wondering, Emerald Flame. Yes, I hold a grudge against you for my last encounter on the forums with you. I am not a bulldog, I am an individual. I hope you don't proceed to ban anyone else on the pretense that they are on Narnia's leash, and demand an apology from him in exchange for their unbanning, too. That was extremely unprofessional. This is the kind of sour PR that makes DEP look really. REALLY bad. /caring |
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Ronnie
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Jan 11 2010, 11:11 AM
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#23
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Group: Furres |
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Victor
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Jan 11 2010, 11:13 AM
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#24
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Group: Furres |
Felorin,
i understand what you are getting at here, but understand that for every 'griefer' that drives away 5-6 people, a staff or head member doing the same or similar would at least have double the effect. money shouldn't have such a major issue in whether a person does his or her job properly or not. in this depression/recession, i know i'm getting shafted, being paid barely minimum wage doing some fairly hard labor for long hours in some very filthy conditions. this does not mean that i stop doing my job effectively or take any sort of easy way out of it. i continue to do things as they are expected of me by my superiors and, more importantly, the people i work FOR- the customers. if i do not like what i am doing any longer, or can no longer do it as effectively, then i know i will have to step down and allow another person to fill my spot. for that reason, i grit my teeth and realize how lucky i am, even with all the trials and tribulations that come with it. i do not slack. i do not get angry with people when things do not go my way or i'm told to do far more work than i really should be- the options are there for me. do the work correctly in order to keep the company thriving or walk out of the door. i mean no offense by this what-so-ever, but am merely trying to put it into perspective. you're a very bright fellow, and i'm sure you know what we're talking about here. EDIT: i also wanted to add that the majority of your staff does an AMAZING job. i've not spoken to many directly and one-on-one, but to the few i have (Gar and Cironir) i have to say i have nothing but the utmost respect and thanks for the things that they do on a regular basis while still handling themselves like professionals. |
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Matter
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Jan 11 2010, 11:19 AM
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#25
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Group: Furres |
We're not asking DEP staff to be emotionless robots. We just want their responses to sound respectful -- not angry, even if they are; not upset, even if they are; not frustrated, even if they are; not scornful, even if they are; not impassioned and offended, even if they are -- this is something that a head of public relations has to be able to do. This doesn't mean laying down and letting themselves get kicked, it means being calm and respectful even when they choose to defend themselves -- even when the opposition doesn't really deserve it, even when you don't personally like them, and even when you've had a bad day. Disregarding the fact that these rude responses have escalated to something far above occasional lately, even the most infrequent offense can soil all of the rest of your reputation if it isn't immediately quelled and discouraged.
And, yes, it's only a small portion of DEP's staff that does anything like this. Gar and Felorin always manage to be calm and respectful under the same circumstances certain other staff fail in. I appreciate their responses, even when I don't agree with their choices, because they are at least nice about it. And I thank you guys for being able to do that -- I just question why someone like you isn't heading PR in place of someone who isn't able to handle it nearly as well. |
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Felorin
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Jan 11 2010, 11:22 AM
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#26
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Group: DEP Admins |
I read the deleted thread, and I think you misunderstood it. For the record, that thread is back in the Suggestions forum and has been since before I posted this thread if anybody else wants to read it. One of our volunteer moderators moved the thread to our review area until I was available to look it over and decide how to respond. Which is exactly what we want them to do when there's a situation that they can't resolve on their own without an official review/response from staff. |
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ArtSpace
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Jan 11 2010, 11:24 AM
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#27
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Group: Furres |
that wasn't the point at all. you're twisting words around. I understand the point of DEP having to keep a respectful tone when addressing customers and taking their suggestions into consideration, not ignoring them. But according to Morgan's post, this rule doesn't apply to customers. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me: what should DEP expect from people who are taking their grievances to suggestion forums? Can customers speak to them any way they want? I tend to think a post filled with loaded language and blanket statements wouldn't be approached so quickly. "You never listen to us." Can you point out a few examples of them not listening? "You fail to handle PR" When? Can you recall some instances of it? Not to mention there's an age gap issue here as well. You've got adults on one end speaking one language and adolescents on the other end with a language of their own. About half a year ago, a group of kids were protesting the general practices of a local school district. I told them, you guys have to come up with a specific agenda, not just saying "we don't like this". Point out incidents you think could have been handled better, that way they can be addressed and the school district knows what they did wrong. And not only that, maybe try to throw in solutions, too. Sometimes someone won't change their habits because they don't have a better way of doing something. |
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Ronnie
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Jan 11 2010, 11:30 AM
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#28
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Group: Furres |
@artspace:
shinichi kudo said this: What are you? You are a human. What are DEP staffers? Guessed it: Humans. So there are humans on both sides. Your side is allowed to show and express emotions, the other side isn't? morgan said this: the difference here is that morwina isn't, you know, portraying herself as a head of public relations for a professional company. the point: even if morwina was being disrespectful or belligerent (and they were not), DEP's PR must keep a cool head because that's how we see them as they are public relations. the agenda has been said quite competently several times, and they're beating around the bush with replies: they're not addressing the problem directly. |
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Felorin
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Jan 11 2010, 11:31 AM
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#29
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Group: DEP Admins |
the difference here is that morwina isn't, you know, portraying herself as a head of public relations for a professional company. this is something that a head of public relations has to be able to do. We don't actually have a head of Public Relations. It's something a variety of us pitch in on, in addition to our other jobs. I would love to have the budget to have a head of PR and a head of Marketing (whether the same person does both, or two different people). Hopefully someday we will. The reason Second Life got lots of magazines and newspapers claiming they were the first to do this, that and the other in user created content was that they had a few million dollars in PR budget. Even though actually Furcadia pioneered a lot of those areas. We do have one very overworked Community Manager, Cironir. I've been telling him for years that I'll eventually get him more paid help in addition to the volunteers he works with. A couple years ago, we put some money into getting more artists. Last year we got two new programmers who were willing to work for low pay until the company grows some more. (Thanks guys!) More community and customer service resources are still something I want to bring in eventually. It's all a question of resources, and when we can manage to expand more in each area of the company. Sure would like that head of Marketing, too. Especially with a new Mac client coming out, that we really need to tell a lot of Macintosh users about. A Director of Business Development would be great too, to look for software licensing opportunities and other things that could help us grow. Someday. |
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ArtSpace
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Jan 11 2010, 11:32 AM
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#30
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Group: Furres |
@artspace: shinichi kudo said this: What are you? You are a human. What are DEP staffers? Guessed it: Humans. So there are humans on both sides. Your side is allowed to show and express emotions, the other side isn't? morgan said this: the difference here is that morwina isn't, you know, portraying herself as a head of public relations for a professional company. the point: even if morwina was being disrespectful or belligerent (and they were not), DEP's PR must keep a cool head because that's how we see them as they are public relations. the agenda has been said quite competently several times, and they're beating around the bush with replies: they're not addressing the problem directly. And that's what I say is fallacious reasoning. DEP must keep a cool head, but Morwina could say whatever she like and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no equal distribution of respect going on. You can't reach a resolution that way. |
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Ronnie
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Jan 11 2010, 11:36 AM
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#31
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Group: Furres |
And that's what I say is fallacious reasoning. DEP must keep a cool head, but Morwina could say whatever she like and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no equal distribution of respect going on. You can't reach a resolution that way. we have plenty of respect towards DEP, but up until now we weren't getting respect in return via thread/post deletion and locked threads. morwina is a consumer, not one of the heads of a player-driven company. |
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Gage
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Jan 11 2010, 11:38 AM
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#32
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Group: Furres |
Look, the only reason DEP is getting such a huge response from what happened yesterday and what HAS been happening since I joined this game long, long ago, is because the Furcadia userbase has complaints that have never been resolved. WE deal with these disappointments, we deal with not getting what we want, but to be honest, regardless of how many new players are coming to Furcadia recently, old players are leaving. This is indisputeable.
We old players are only posting because we plan to play the game in the future! We are geniunely concerned with the direction we see the staff and the game turning. We are not trolling, we would not waste our time posting and reading page-long posts, thread after thread, if we were not absolutely passionate about the subject. I myself have invested a considerable amount of money in this game and am a bit disgruntled about a few things, and as polite as I try to be, I have three fifty dollar lifers, countless portspaces, and countless commissioned art spread across my alts that will all lose me money when I quit and try to pass them on to other players. From one business person to another, please start listening to us, because if I quit because of my concerns seemingly being ignored and lose 150+ dollars on this game, I will never return, and more than likely I will advise everybody I come in contact to not to return. It's like buying a Wii, and then Nintendo all of the sudden says, "To all you people out there that have been expecting wiimote innovative motion-sensing games, they will come back, but for now all of the games we're manufacturing will be played on Gamecube controllers". Sure, most people have Gamecube controllers, and they're not that expensive, but we want motion sensing. We very loudly desire it! Why would Nintendo ever ignore their clients and produce things they don't want! I can name items we don't/didn't want as a community. I'm sure some people requested them, but I doubt it was the main communities decision, not based off my personal preferences but based off the responses in-game and on the forums. The bottom line is, if you want us to continue to fund you, start supplying products we want. We'll even tell you exactly what we want, there's no guessing involved. Right now we all want the 32-bit update, or so I've heard, so instead of all these new avatars and whatever, why not supply us something we've been asking for, and start doing that from now on. Your sales will actually increase, even if the 32-bit update is free. Your consumers will be happy and more willing to support you in the future. This is how business works. |
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Victor
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Jan 11 2010, 11:38 AM
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#33
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Group: Furres |
artspace,
if you read Morwina's post, you would see a number of direct quotes pulled from various places by one specific staff member. maybe go re-read her thread before you come into this discussion with guns blazing and fingers pointing. we have given many examples now, we have said many times exactly what it is that needs addressing, and there is no excuse for anyone to claim ignorance at this point. even people who are not in any way a part of this conversation and realize it know what it is about at this point. i agree -everyone- needs to keep their cool and try not to flame anyone, however when a staff member does it, it reflects more poorly on the game than if a single individual or 'troll' does it. on top of that, many of these instances were not in the faces of trolls, but in the faces of concerned individuals with genuine suggestions, to which they got the response of 'We need more suggestions like these like we need holes in the head." would a simple 'we are considering your suggestions, but are unlikely to implement them in the near future for X reason' not suffice? |
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ArtSpace
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Jan 11 2010, 11:39 AM
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#34
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Group: Furres |
we have plenty of respect towards DEP, but up until now we weren't getting respect in return via thread/post deletion and locked threads. morwina is a consumer, not one of the heads of a player-driven company. I was actually in that very thread that was locked and I saw a lot of posts going on containing personal attacks. I agree with it being locked and I don't think it was respectful at all. The problem, I think, are some of the people complaining and not realizing the way they're speaking is rude. So when their post is deleted, they don't understand why and they believe they were censored for no reason. |
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ArtSpace
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Jan 11 2010, 11:40 AM
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#35
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Group: Furres |
artspace, if you read Morwina's post, you would see a number of direct quotes pulled from various places by one specific staff member. maybe go re-read her thread before you come into this discussion with guns blazing and fingers pointing. Aha, perfect example. See this? That's rude. Try saying that to someone in real life and see if they would stick around to listen to the rest of what you have to say. We've got a fundamental problem here. |
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Morgan
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Jan 11 2010, 11:41 AM
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#36
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Group: Furres |
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Ronnie
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Jan 11 2010, 11:41 AM
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#37
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Group: Furres |
no rudeness intended:
if you think that was rude, you've been babied all of your life. |
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Matter
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Jan 11 2010, 11:42 AM
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#38
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Group: Furres |
I understand the point of DEP having to keep a respectful tone when addressing customers and taking their suggestions into consideration, not ignoring them. But according to Morgan's post, this rule doesn't apply to customers. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me: what should DEP expect from people who are taking their grievances to suggestion forums? Can customers speak to them any way they want? I tend to think a post filled with loaded language and blanket statements wouldn't be approached so quickly. Personal attacks from customers are not acceptable either, but there are ways to deal with those kinds of posters without resorting to the same juvenile tactics.QUOTE "You fail to handle PR" When? Can you recall some instances of it? I did that in the first thread: QUOTE It's responses like this, and this (edit: the post that was deleted from the thread and later PMed to me), and this, that make people hesitant to post or discuss anything on the forums. If DEP doesn't agree with a suggestion or opinion, a simple "we've noted your concerns but do not plan to implement them at this time" would suffice; "We need more of your suggestions like we a need a hole in the head" is not a reply anyone deserves. QUOTE We don't actually have a head of Public Relations. You do have someone who is dedicated to public responses. For the sake of being polite we haven't been naming names, but I think we both know who everyone is speaking of. It sort of seems like you're evading the issue.QUOTE I was actually in that very thread that was locked and I saw a lot of posts going on containing personal attacks. I agree with it being locked and I don't think it was respectful at all. The problem, I think, are some of the people complaining and not realizing the way they're speaking is rude. So when their post is deleted, they don't understand why and they believe they were censored for no reason. The only personal attacks in that thread were from Sanne, who was in support of DEP, and Black Rain, who we chastised ourselves and got to clear his offensive posts. There wasn't a single other personal attack anywhere else in the thread.
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ArtSpace
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Jan 11 2010, 11:44 AM
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#39
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Group: Furres |
I did look at the examples you posted and I don't see anything wrong with them. This is definitely a 'viewpoint' problem. Just like:
QUOTE if you think that was rude, you've been babied all of your life. Is perceived as rude to me, it isn't perceived as rude to you. Yet the examples you've posted of DEP's responses don't seem rude to me, yet they seem rude to you. Do you see the problem now? |
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Gage
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Jan 11 2010, 11:46 AM
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#40
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Group: Furres |
.............
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