Humans In Digo Market, Human Avatars Options

[Galantine]

Alright, I know this has been addressed before and perhaps putting human avatars in Furcadia as some of the 'Free species' isn't the best idea, but since it has been addressed before, then there is obviously some sort of popular demand for such things. Even if the majority of people wouldn't be entirely interested in having such things, perhaps we could make something available on Digo Market for those who actually WISH to have such avatars for their human characters. That way, the people who object don't have to go and purchase the avatars and the ones that are actually interested have the option of purchasing them for $19.99/year or something similar. If you want to appeal to the clientele, then the vast majority of people who actually RP as humans might appreciate such things. Also, I realize that there are patches available for specific dreams where humans can walk around, but those patches HAVE been created for a reason and that's because people like to have their avatars look as their characters do. Perhaps some people would like to walk around and visit other dreams as a human avatar, just like some enjoy browsing as nobles. The first rule of any thriving business; supply and demand. You have several people already proposing the idea of having humans, so those that are interested should be given the opportunity to purchase such things - which, in turn, would bring Furcadia more money as well.

That's my brilliant suggestion for the week.

[Belial]

I agree. The thing that made me scratch my head was the introduction of bugs. I see more humanoid players than bug players, so it kind of makes me wonder why bugs and not humans? I understand the game is called 'Fur'cadia, and our title EVEN on these boards, is 'furre'. Some people aim for realism in their rps, or play different universes. To be honest, I see more humanoid creatures rping. Middle age dreams, star wars, whatever, humans outnumber ferals, and they get their own map.

[Kelarys]

If you hit the search button, you'll find several threads related to this one and reasons why it MAY or MAY NOT be feasible.

With very few exceptions, all the Digo avatars are from the "Official" Furcadia cannon. For example, the Bugges were added as a Digo because they exist in the Dragonlands, and "ferals" exist as the cursed "weres." Humans do not exist in the Official Cannon, therefore will be unlikely as a Digo avatar.

However, that being said, in one of the forthcoming future updates that will offer more customization to avatars, one will supposedly be able to make their avatar look more human, if they so choose (By removing the tail, etc).

I foresee this thread having a lot of repeated information.

[Belial]

I understand about 'canon' but, since when were bovines part of the canon?

[Kamose]

From Frequently Suggested Avatars:

Hyoomans/Humans: This remains a controversial subject. A recent poll of Furcadia's players revealed that 61.5% of players favor the addition of an official human avatar, while 38.5% believe that humans should not be allowed at all or should only be allowed in private dreams. Some players are so passionately anti-human that they have threatened to quit if humans are ever added.

Currently, the creators are divided about the desirability of adding human avatars. Talzhemir is strongly opposed to the addition of humans. So far, DEP has only added avatars from the Dragonlands, and "Hyoomans" are not canon. Felorin and sanctimonious believe that humans would be a good addition. The availability of human avatars could attract more players, and that would mean more revenue for Furcadia. It could also help people to understand that furry fandom doesn't have to be perverse. Emerald Flame is undecided about human avatars, although she once acknowledged that "Furcadia is about animal characters."

If humans were added to Furcadia, DEP would most likely add a free gender-neutral avatar and sell a male/female version as a Digo. Emerald Flame says that it is unlikely that Furcadia will release a themed map for humans, because it didn't work well for Ferians. DEP would "be much more likely to make a completely separate game that has human avatars."

[Seley]

It's not a matter of whether or not humans fit into the canon. It's not even a matter of "a lot of people have asked for them so we should have them."

It's a matter of how controversial human avatars are. There are people who think they would be a fine addition, and there are people who are very, very vehemently against the idea of humans in an anthro game, for all kinds of reasons. It's a difficult decision because of the potential discord they could cause - free, digo, or otherwise.

Smart business decisions also involve not shooting yourself in the foot, and introducing an avatar that could make a significant portion of your loyal player base extremely unhappy - regardless of the demand from people who would like it - isn't a decision to make lightly.

EDIT: Kamose's quote posted while I was typing, and it covers a lot of this anyway, hah.

[Lysanda]

I understand about 'canon' but, since when were bovines part of the canon?

I'm pretty much sure that any anthropomorphic mammalian species is cannon, even some choices that might seem strange, like specific breeds of canines, cats or horses that exist in the real-world purely because of human breeding, like dalmatians. I remember Talzhemir having a furry drawing suggestions tutorial once that I believe was of a boxer dog breed, bobbed tail and everything.

There were lists once of some different species for ideas that weren't represented exactly by the existing avatars, such as deer and such.

[Rat The Unloved]

Again with this? Try doing a search for "Human" or "Hyooman" avatar and seeing the raging, flaming, fire it seems to cause each time.

Look toward a separate, furc-like, game with Humans. Humans in Furcadia would alienate the population more than it would help DEP.

[Donovan Tooch]

Humans in Furcadia would alienate the population more than it would help DEP.

I don't entirely agree with this statement, basically humans are out there anyway just as felines for they look the most hyooman-esque. Some private dreams as everyone already knows (so why am I typing this?) have the hyooman option as a patch or something, I dont know the jargon.

Having humans does not alienate the population; I think people should begin to recognise that Furc is less about the original continuity and more about person plots and imagination.

(LET THE FEUD BEGIN, mwahaha)

[Seley]

(LET THE FEUD BEGIN, mwahaha)

Or I could help by summing it up.

Pro-Human:
"Humans are animals too!"
"They don't have to be free!"
"They won't 'ruin Furcadia' players are just overreacting!"
"It would bring in money for Furcadia!"
"61% of people in the last poll wanted them!"
"There have been SOOOOO many requests for them!"

Anti-Human:
"Don't bring the human/furry drama to Furcadia!"
"It would ruin the magic of Furcadia's animal characters!"
"The 35% who hate humans are threatening to leave, and making 61% happy at the potential cost of 35% of the player population isn't a reasonable risk to take."
"I hate human avatars and I avoid all dreams that have them!"
"I like Furcadia because I can ESCAPE the world of humanity!"

I think that covers everything I've heard said about the issue. Both sides with valid points, and thus, indecision. If you feel strongly one way or the other about it, I'd highly encourage you to take some time to seriously consider the other point of view, and try to relate to it.

[Talzhemir]

There's lots of claims that this or that particular avatar "would be a hit". However, the most convincing argument is probably not, "I've seen lots of [_________]..."

We've reached a point where most of the main types of furry are covered. Except for humans, any group of animals we add now is going to be quite small. We might add a few more Types, but, no promises there. We will will most likely only be adding new avatars as Digos.

It's time for us to concentrate resources on other areas of Furcadia. The new color system is going in. The other Dream art is in dire need of some sort of overhaul.

What we find rather compelling as a reason to add a creature is when Dreams add something as a Local Species, and we see that the Dream's population is high as a result. That's partly what prompted the addition of the various Ferals.

Alas, popularity isn't a guarantee that a species will sell well. Gryphons have always been a highly popular species in furrydom yet they're not one of our sales blockbusters. Bugges might not be that appealing now but perhaps when they have their wings, a couple of appealing insect archetypes will enter the mix.

Humans have been added to Dreams quite a few times, but they've never really caught on. They're usually played in very Strict contexts. For example, there's Asheville by Night, Plymothville by Night, Paris Opera, Circus of the Damned, and Parisian Opera. All of these Dreams have extremely restrictive rules on how to play a vampire.

Currently, Strict RP is rare, and the more freewheeling Persona RP is the majority. I think that will always be true, but as PhoenixSpeak and other aspects of DragonSpeak improves, our capacity to run Strict RP will increase a lot. Strict RP is around 10% of Furcadia's activity.

I expect that will eventually reverse. What's done to make RP easier now only caters to the minority but eventually, it will be for the benefit of most. So, even though not many people play in the canon, in the Dragonlands, one day, I think they might.

I'm somewhat less worried than I was at the start about adding non-canon things. When an avatar is added, it may be "flagged" as "seasonal". Every Dream defaults to allowing Seasonals, but Dream owners can tone down the silliness level by turning Seasonals off.

"Seasonal" is, of course, the catch-all term for all the non-canon "novelty" avatars such as the winged toaster.

To some extent, the presence of each "wacky" avatar hurts the chance of serious RP developing spontaneously. I love the addition of *some* whimsy but I'd rather not turn Furcadia into the Star Wars cantina scene, if you know what I mean?

There's a sort of balance being struck, and it's not so simple and crude that we could say (for instance) "two serious avatars for every wacky one".

As we allowed the Seasonals in, furres who happened to want RP with a serious tone have had to go farther and farther "afield" to find it. It's pressured our non-private areas into appearing somewhat more child-oriented. We don't have to be 100% serious but we also don't want to slide from Narnia into Wonder Pets either.

On the scale from goofy to serious, humans do add weight in the "serious" column.

However, they aren't in line with the vision of what Furcadia is meant to be about: funny animals. There is no definitive "furries" literature (yet), but Furcadia does cover an existing genre. Examples include Disney's Robin Hood, Vicky Wyman's Xanadu and Everchanging Palace, and Armand D'orive and Scott Jones's Shard setting (Dardunah). http://www.shardrpg.com/

All-furre books and movies seem to have a sort of common feel to them. Characters at one are fairly at home in another.

C.S. Lewis's Boxen, Disney's Jungle Book, the movie "Who Killed Roger Rabbit?" all mix humans and furries. Settings which mix humans in along with anthromorphic characters have all sorts of different moods to them. It's not inherently bad, but it's also not what we're going for.

Unlike all-furre stories, you can't switch characters between the different worlds and have them at least be close.

[Narnia]

Or I could help by summing it up.

Pro-Human:
"Humans are animals too!"
"They don't have to be free!"
"They won't 'ruin Furcadia' players are just overreacting!"
"It would bring in money for Furcadia!"
"61% of people in the last poll wanted them!"
"There have been SOOOOO many requests for them!"

Anti-Human:
"Don't bring the human/furry drama to Furcadia!"
"It would ruin the magic of Furcadia's animal characters!"
"The 35% who hate humans are threatening to leave, and making 61% happy at the potential cost of 35% of the player population isn't a reasonable risk to take."
"I hate human avatars and I avoid all dreams that have them!"
"I like Furcadia because I can ESCAPE the world of humanity!"

I think that covers everything I've heard said about the issue. Both sides with valid points, and thus, indecision. If you feel strongly one way or the other about it, I'd highly encourage you to take some time to seriously consider the other point of view, and try to relate to it.

While there may be a 61/35 split for pro and con of the human species. The better statistic to look at would be whether the people who actually buy digos are for or against humans. It's all about making money, isn't it?

[Seley]

It's all about making money, isn't it?

Frankly, no.

A significant portion of running a business is money, but if it were "all about making money" then Furcadia would have already sold out to rich investors who would have already turned Furcadia into WoW - and the members of DEP would be making a decent profit instead of barely scraping by.

So why do they run DEP independently? To retain complete creative control and ensure that they can run a game - and more than that, a community - in ways they want to, and NOT simply sell out to the highest bidder. The impact on the community is just as important, perhaps even MORE important, than the impact on the bottom line.

[Rat The Unloved]

C.S. Lewis's Boxen, Disney's Jungle Book, the movie "Who Killed Roger Rabbit?" all mix humans and furries. Settings which mix humans in along with anthromorphic characters have all sorts of different moods to them. It's not inherently bad, but it's also not what we're going for.

It's also interesting to note that in those famous worlds, animals/anthros were subjugated (except Aslan) and the Humans were in control. They were ruled, terrorized, even eaten (Narnia), envious, even murderous and criminal (jungle book), segregated/endentured, idiotic... and evil (Roger Rabbit). Let's not forget Harry Potter, where non-human creatures are liscensed and evaluated by human standards (earning Centaurs the title of "near-human intellegence"... a grave insult), shuffling their territory around...etc. That is a dynamic that -would- enter into things.

While I have always worked for, and with, Human-and-anthro dreams... I've never been a huge fan of an official human. Maybe -humanoid-, but not human. Human vs. Furry drama is thick, yet, and this would give the anti-furry crowd a big, wide, "in" to cause trouble... something harder to do when you, yourself, have to start with a furry avatar.

[Islene Britta]

Frankly in all the cases you gave those were writer decisions used to depict the inherent fear man holds for the unknown, and in those cases he does not regularly interact with the creatures depicted. The majority of the people who RP as humans are generally, from what I've gathered, responsible and mature enough to keep on playing without fuss. Simply because there are human avatars, does not necessarily mean that there is going to be some sort of 'rebellion' against the furres. Several people already play humans and I have seen, on numerous occasions, the two coinciding in existence peacefully. And, in turn - if you feel that way - could the same thing not be said for furres towards humans? In short, "Why you gotta' keep a brotha' down?"

[Favorites]

Let me tell you what. Kain Ragnarok has made a bunch of Human avatars, as well have other Artists. (Such as Kaelin'yfiae) Download one, and patch it over your current avatar.. Want everyone to see it? Patch it into your dream, and away you go!

To be honest, this is why Furcadia is, Furcadia. You can do things like that. You can create a dream, add in ANY AVATAR YOU WANT, IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. There are no limits to what you can add.. If you want a Human, add it.. If you want part human, part eagle, part squid, part water lagoon, go ahead!

[Ehud]

All-furre books and movies seem to have a sort of common feel to them. Characters at one are fairly at home in another.

C.S. Lewis's Boxen, Disney's Jungle Book, the movie "Who Killed Roger Rabbit?" all mix humans and furries. Settings which mix humans in along with anthromorphic characters have all sorts of different moods to them. It's not inherently bad, but it's also not what we're going for.

Unlike all-furre stories, you can't switch characters between the different worlds and have them at least be close.

I can't really find how to regard your comparison of a few pieces of good literature and screen adaptations that have set regulations as to how things will pan out indefinitely, to a world full of ever-changing people, whose funding of this game fuels the very existence of the community, even after just observing the growth and expression of many groups after something nearing a decade of activity with Furcadia, on my end. What you have provided simply a weak, failed point, and ignores the basic fact of beneficial action it could bring to the community overall. Some might leave, though I am completely certain many more would flock to the game in renewed or piqued interest because of the addition of human avatars, even if just for sale in the Digo Market in limited amounts as suggested. Not at least providing a chance for this to develop is the very same action of refusal to change. I am no economist, and chances are I would never bother buying anything like that myself, but I'm not braindead, either. I see the opportunity brought, and cast off without chance given. Regardless of how it may cause offense to canon and the argument that follows, it scarcely seems to matter to those with private continuities that stray from the very foundations of Furcadia altogether, which makes up a rather large percentage of the active population.

Taking into account the economic aspect and speculating would be a better idea than simply postulating with empty words, and no hard material for reinforcement. If a poll was done in a relatively serious fashion, and went beyond this tiny initiative, there would be much more reason for denial of this idea. Throwing it out without it being given a chance might as well be giving up on a very prosperous plan, if it did come to fruition.

[Rat The Unloved]

Frankly in all the cases you gave those were writer decisions used to depict the inherent fear man holds for the unknown, and in those cases he does not regularly interact with the creatures depicted.

In Who Framed Roger Rabbit they did live side-by-side... in the everyday world even. And yet, they're relegated to the position of "entertainment" or "menace".

Several people already play humans and I have seen, on numerous occasions, the two coinciding in existence peacefully. And, in turn - if you feel that way - could the same thing not be said for furres towards humans? In short, "Why you gotta' keep a brotha' down?"

I, myself, play humans. It's not about PLAYING humans, but about introducing them into Furc. The same could be said for any non-furry character. As Talzhemir stated, Seasonal avatars slowly chip away at the "serious side" of Furcadia... and yet benefit it greatly financially. It's a balancing act.

Take a look at the track-record... twelve years of asking, and no human. IF there were one, I'd wanna see it like a seasonal. Offered for short ammounts of time at an "attention premium" just like the Werewolf, and if you want it for life? Be prepared to do a group buy, like the Kiwi or Penguin.

Maximum support for furcadia, minimum impact on the game. Helping to what? BALANCE... just like current seasonals.

[Seley]

Maximum support for furcadia, minimum impact on the game. Helping to what? BALANCE... just like current seasonals.

It could be a Columbus day seasonal. Celebrate that guy who claims to have "discovered" the already-inhabited Americas by having humans "discover" the already-inhabited Furcadia. Bundle it with a "I've sailed to Furcindia!" desctag.

[Sirum Hest]

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